Read the full transcript from the first presidential debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump

USA TODAY Staff, USA TODAY
·96 mins read

Correction and clarification: A prior version of this transcript misstated what President Donald Trump said about the Democratic Party and socialism.

This is the full transcript from Tuesday night's first presidential debate between Republican President Donald Trump and Democrat Joe Biden. The debate was moderated by Fox News host Chris Wallace. Minutes and seconds are marked at various points for reference

00:00 CHRIS WALLACE

The first of the 2020 presidential debates between President Donald J. Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden. This debate is sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. The Commission has designed the format: six, roughly 15 minute segments, with two minute answers and each candidate to the first question. Then open discussion for the rest of each segment. Both campaigns have agreed to these rules. For the record, I decided the topics, and the questions in each topic. I can assure you, none of the questions has been shared with the commission, or the two candidates. This debate is being conducted under health and safety protocols designed by the Cleveland Clinic, which is doing as a health security adviser to the commission for all four debates. As a precaution both campaigns have agreed that candidates will not shake hands at the beginning of tonight's debate. The audience here in the hall has pledged to remain silent: no cheers, no boo’s, or other interruptions so we, and more importantly you, can focus on what the candidates have to say. No noise, except right now, as we welcome the Republican nominee, President Trump, and the Democratic nominee, Vice President Biden.

01:40 WALLACE

Gentlemen, a lot of people have been waiting for this night, so let's get going. Our first subject is the Supreme Court. President Trump you nominated Amy Coney Barrett over the weekend to succeed the late, Ruth Bader Ginsburg on the court. You say the Constitution is clear about your obligation and the Senate's to consider a nominee the court, Vice President Biden, you say that this is an effort by the president and Republicans to jam through and an appointment and what you call an ‘abuse of power.’ My first question to both of you tonight: Why are you right in the argument you make, and your opponent wrong and where do you think a Justice Barrett would take the court. President Trump, in this first segment you go first. Two minutes.

2:29 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP

Thank you very much, Chris, I will tell you very simply. We won the election, elections have consequences. We have the Senate, we have the White House, and we have a phenomenal nominee, respected by all top, top academic -- good in every way, good in every way. In fact, some of her biggest endorsers are very liberal people from Notre Dame and other places so I think she's going to be fantastic. We have plenty of time. Even if we did it after the election itself, I have a lot of time after the election, as you know. So I think that she will be outstanding, she's going to be as good as anybody that has served on that court. We really feel that -- we have a professor at Notre Dame, highly respected by all, says she's the single greatest student he's ever had. He's been a professor for a long time in a great school. And we just, we won the election, and therefore we have the right to choose her and very few people knowingly would say otherwise -- and by the way the Democrats, they wouldn't even think about that, doing it. If they had -- the only difference is they'd try and do it faster. There's no way they would give it up. They had Merrick Garland, but the problem is they didn't have the elections so they were stopped, and probably that would happen in reversal so definitely would happen reverse. So we won the election and we have the right to do it.

3:50 WALLACE

President Trump, Thank you. Same question to your Vice President Biden you have two minutes.

Television screens airing the first presidential debate are seen at Walters Sports Bar in Washinton.
Television screens airing the first presidential debate are seen at Walters Sports Bar in Washinton.

3:56 JOE BIDEN

First of all, thank you for doing this and looking forward to this, Mr. President. I -- the American people have a right to have a say to who the Supreme Court nominee is, and that say occurs when they vote for United States senators and when they vote for the President of the United States. They're not going to get that chance now because we're in the middle of an election already -- the election has already started. Tens of thousands of people have already voted. And so the thing that should happen is we should wait, we should wait and see what the outcome of this election is, because that's the only way the American people get to express their view, is by who they elect as president who they elect as vice president. Now, what's at stake here is, the President’s made it clear, he wants to get rid of the Affordable Care Act. He's been running on that. He ran on that and he’s been governing on that. He's in the Supreme Court right now trying to get rid of the Affordable Care Act, which will strip 20 million people from having insurance, health insurance, now, if they -- if it goes into court and, and the justice and I have nothing -- I'm not opposed to the justice, she seems like a very fine person. But she's written before she went to the bench, which is her right, that she thinks that the Affordable Care Act is not constitutional. The other thing is on the court -- if it’s struck down, what happens? Women's rights are fundamentally changed. Once again, a woman could be held -- make more money because she has a pre-existing condition of pregnancy. We're able to, they're able to charge women more for the same exact procedure a man gets, and that ended when we, in fact, passed the Affordable Care Act. And there's 100 million people who have pre-existing conditions, and they'll be taken away as well. Those pre-existing conditions, insurance companies are going to love this. And so it's just not appropriate to do this before this election. If he wins the election and the senate is Democrat or Republican, then he goes forward; if not, we should wait until February.

6:01 TRUMP

There aren’t 100 million people with pre-existing conditions. As far as the say is concerned, people already had their say. They -- okay, Justice Ginsburg said -- very powerfully, very strongly -- at some point, 10 years ago or so, she said a president and the Senate is elected for a period of time, but a president's elected for four years. We’re not elected for three years -- I'm not elected for three years. So we have the Senate, we have a president --

BIDEN

Who’s elected at the next election.

TRUMP

-- During that period of time, we have an opening. I'm not elected for three years; I'm elected for four years. --

BIDEN

The election’s already started.

06:38 TRUMP

-- Joe. The hundred million people is totally wrong. I don't know where you got that number. The bigger problem that you have is that you're going to extinguish 180 million people with their private health care --

BIDEN

That’s simply not true.

TRUMP

Well, you said

WALLACE

Gentleman, we're now into open discussion, open discussion. Yes, I agree. Vice President.

7:00 BIDEN

Number one. He knows that -- what I proposed. What I proposed is that we expand Obamacare, and we increase it, we do not wipe any -- and one of the big debates we had with 23 of my colleagues trying to win the nomination that I won, were saying that Biden wanted to allow people have private insurance still, they can they do, they will under my proposal.

7:25 TRUMP

Not what you said. That is not what you said. Your party wants to go Socialist.They're gonna dominate you, Joe, you know that.

7:36 BIDEN

I am the Democratic Party right now. The platform of the Democratic Party is what, I, in fact, approved of. What I approved of. Now here's the deal. The deal is that this is going to wipe out pre-existing condition -- by the way, the 20, the 200 million, the 200,000 people that have died on his watch. How many of those have survived? Over 7 million people have contracted COVID. What does it mean for them going forward if you strike down the Affordable Care Act?

8:05 TRUMP

Joe, you had 308,000 military people die because you couldn't provide them proper health care in the military, so don't tell me about this

BIDEN

I’m happy to talk about this

8:15 TRUMP

And if you were here, it wouldn’t be 200, it would be 2 million people, because you were very late on the draw. You didn’t want me to ban China, which was heavily infected. You didn’t want me to ban

8:24 WALLACE

All right we're gonna jump in right now. Mr. President. Mr. President, there’s a moderator. We are going to talk about COVID in the next segment, but go ahead.

8:36 BIDEN

Well, let me finish. The point is that the President also is opposed to Roe v Wade. That's on the ballot as well, in the court in the court. And so that's also at stake, right now.

8:52 TRUMP

You don’t know that’s on the ballot. Why is it on the ballot, Why is it on the ballot. It's not on the ballot

BIDEN

It’s on the ballot in the court

TRUMP

I don’t think so. There's nothing happening there. You don’t know her view on Roe v Wade. All right.

BIDEN

I don’t know --

9:06 WALLACE

All right, all right, let's talk here. We got a lot to unpack here, gentlemen, and we’ve got a lot of time. On health care. And with that, we'll come back to Roe v Wade. All right, Mr President, the Supreme Court will hear a case, a week after the election, in which the Trump administration, along with 18 state attorneys general are seeking to overturn Obamacare, to end Obamacare. You have sent the last --

TRUMP

Because I want to give good healthcare. Good healthcare.

WALLACE

If I may ask that question, sir. Over the last four years you have promised to repeal and replace Obamacare but you have never in these four years, come up with a plan, a comprehensive plan, to replace Obamacare.

09:51 TRUMP

Yes I have. Of course I have. I'll get rid of the individual mandate which was added. That is absolutely a big thing, that was the worst part of Obamacare. The worst part of Obamacare. Well, I’ll ask Joe. The individual mandate was the most unpopular aspect of Obamacare. I got rid of it.

10:12 WALLACE

I am the moderator in this debate. And I would like you to let me ask my question and then you can answer.

10:18

Go ahead.

WALLACE

You, in the course of these four years, have never come up with a comprehensive plan to replace Obamacare, and just this last Thursday, you signed a largely symbolic executive order to protect people with pre-existing conditions, five days before this debate. So my question sir is, what is the Trump healthcare plan.

TRUMP

Well, first of all, I guess I'm debating you not him, but that's okay, I’m not surprised. Let me just tell you something. That has nothing symbolic. I'm cutting drug prices, I'm going with favored nations which no president has encouraged to do because you're going against big pharma. Drug prices will be coming down, 80 or 90%. You could have done it during your 47 year period in government but you didn't do it, nobody's done it. So we're cutting health care, all of the things that we've done -- insulin. I‘ll give an example: insulin. It's going to, it was destroying families -- destroyed people, the cost -- ‘I'm getting it for so cheap; it's like water.’ You want to know the truth, so cheap. Take a look at all of the drugs that --- what we're doing, prescription drug prices, we're going to allow our governors now to go to other countries to buy drugs because when they make just a tiny fraction -- this is big stuff.

This combination of pictures created on September 29, 2020 shows Democratic Presidential candidate Joe Biden and President Donald Trump speaking during the first presidential debate at the Case Western Reserve University and Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio on September 29, 2020.
This combination of pictures created on September 29, 2020 shows Democratic Presidential candidate Joe Biden and President Donald Trump speaking during the first presidential debate at the Case Western Reserve University and Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio on September 29, 2020.

11:31 WALLACE

Mr. President, you'll be happy. I'm about to pick up on one of your points to ask the Vice President, which is he points out that you would like to add a public option to Obamacare, and the argument that he makes and other Republicans make, is that that is going to end private insurance.

BIDEN

It is not.

WALLACE

I am asking the question. That it will, it will end private insurance and create a government takeover of health care.

11:37 BIDEN

It does not. It's only for those people who are so poor they qualify for Medicaid, they can get that free. In most states, except governors who want to deny people are poor, Medicaid. Anyone who qualifies for Medicare -- excuse me, Medicaid -- would automatically be enrolled in the public option. The vast majority of the American people would still not be in that option. Number one --

12:22 TRUMP

So you agree with Bernie Sanders, who’s left on the manifesto we call it, that gives you socialized medicine

12:31 BIDEN

Look. The fact of the matter is, I beat Bernie Sanders --

12:42 TRUMP

You got very lucky.

12:45 BIDEN

I got very lucky, I’m going to get very lucky tonight as well. And tonight I'm going to -- here's the deal, here’s the deal. The fact is that everything he’s saying so far it's simply a lie. I'm not here to call out his lies; everybody knows he's a liar. I want to make sure -- I want to make the President --

WALLACE

Can you let him finish sir.

BIDEN

He doesn't know how to do that.

BIDEN

There is no manifesto --

13:25 TRUMP

You just lost the left. You just lost the left. You agreed with Bernie Sanders on a plan.

13:31 BIDEN

Folks, do we have any idea what this clown is doing?

13:36 BIDEN

Let me tell you what. He is not for any help for people needing health care because he in fact already cost 10 million people their health care that they had from their employers, because of his recession, number one. Number two, there are 20 million people getting health care through Obamacare now he wants to take it away. He won't ever look in your eye and say that's what he wants to do. Take it away,

TRUMP

No, I want to give them better health care at a much much lower price because he has no, he doesn't know how to read fixed he has never already played it to an extent he has now.

14:16 WALLACE

I know you’ll realize you're both speaking at the same time. Let the President's -- go ahead sir.

14:22 TRUMP

Obamacare is no good. We made it better and I had a choice to make very early on. We took away the individual mandate. We guaranteed pre existing conditions but took away the individual mandate. Listen, this is the way it is. And that destroyed, that they shouldn't even call it Obamacare. But I had a choice to make. Do I let my people run it really well, or badly. If I run it badly they'll probably blame him, but they'll blame me, but more importantly I want to help people. Okay, I said you got to run it so well. That's me, and I just had a meeting with them; they said, ‘The problem is, no matter how well you run Obamacare, it's a disaster. It's too expensive, premiums are too high, that it doesn't work,’ I suppose, people -- yes we do want to get rid of it. I want to get rid of something.

15:07 WALLACE

I have to give you roughly equal time, please let the vice president talk.

15:12 BIDEN

He has no plan for healthcare. He sends out wishful thinking, he has executive orders that have no power, he hasn't lowered drug costs for anybody, he’s been promising a health care plan since he got elected. He has none. Like almost everything else he talks about, he does not have a plan. He doesn't have a plan. And the fact is, this man doesn't know what he's talking about.

WALLACE

One final question for you, Mr. Vice President, if Senate Republicans -- we were originally talking about the Supreme Court here -- if Senate Republicans, go ahead and confirm justice Barrett, there has been talk about ending the filibuster, or even packing the court, adding to the nine justices there. You call this a distraction by the president, but in fact it wasn't brought up by the President, it was brought up by some of your Democratic colleagues in Congress. So my question to you as you have refused in the past to talk about it: Are you willing to tell the American people tonight, whether or not you will support either ending the filibuster or packing the court.

16:16 BIDEN

Whatever position I take on that, that'll become the issue -- the issue is, the American people should speak. You should go out and vote. We're in voting now, vote and let your senators know how strongly you feel. Vote now, in fact let people know it is your senators. I'm not going to answer the question.

TRUMP

Why won’t you answer the question -- radical left -- well, listen.

BIDEN

Would you shut up, man.

TRUMP

Who is on your list?

16:49 WALLACE

We have ended this segment. We're going to move on to the second segment.

16:52 BIDEN

That was a really productive segment, wasn’t it.

16:57 BIDEN

Keep yapping, man.

TRUMP

The people understand, Joe. In 47 years, you've done nothing then just.

WALLACE

Alright. The second subject is a covid-19, which is an awfully serious subject, so let's try to be -- A million cases of coronavirus in the United States and more than 200,000 people have died. Even after we produce a vaccine, experts say that it could be months or even years before we come back toward anything approaching normal. My question for both of you is based on what you have said and done so far and what you have said you would do starting in 2021, why should the American people trust you more than your opponent to deal with this public health crisis going forward. In this case, the question goes to you first. Sir, two minutes uninterrupted.

17:54 BIDEN

Look, 200,000 dead. You said over 7 million infected in the United States. We in fact have 5% or 4% of the world's population, 20% of the deaths. 40,000 people a day are contracting COVID. In addition to that, about between 750 and 1000 people, they're dying. When he was presented with that number he said ‘it is what it is’ -- what it is what it is -- because you are who you are. That's why it is. The president has no plan. He hasn't laid out anything. He knew all the way back in February how serious this crisis was. He knew it was a deadly disease. What did he do? He's on tape as acknowledging he knew. He said he didn't tell us or give people a warning of it, because he didn't want to panic the American people. You don't panic, he panicked. In addition to that, what did he do? He went in and he, we were insisting that the Chinese, the people we had on the ground in China should be able to go to watch, and determine for themselves, how dangerous this was. He did not even ask Xi to do that. He told us what a great job Xi was doing. He said we owe him a debt of gratitude for being so transparent with us. What did he do then? He then he waited and waited and waited. He still doesn't have a plan. I laid out or I could just watch, exactly what we should be doing. And I laid out again in July, what we should be doing. We should be providing all the protective gear plus, we should be providing the money the House has passed in order to be able to go out and get people to help they need to keep their businesses, open, open schools that cost a lot of money. You should get out of your bunker and get out of the sand trap, get people the help they need to keep their businesses, open, open schools that cost a lot of money. You should get out of your bunker and get out of the car, and in your golf course the golf course and going oval office

19:54 TRUMP

The country would have been left wide open, Millions of people would have died, not 200,000. And one person is too much -- it's China's fault, it should have never happened. They stopped it from going in, but it was China's fault, by the way when you talk about numbers you know how many people died in Japan. How many people died in Russia. How many people died in India. They don’t exactly give you a straight count, just so you understand. But if you look at what we've done. I closed it and you said he's xenophobic, he's a racist and xenophobic because you didn't close in our country. You didn't think we should have closed our country because you thought it was too -- it was terrible. You wouldn't have closed it for another two months. By my doing it early -- in fact Dr. Fauci said President Trump saved thousands of lives. Many of your Democrat governors said President Trump did a phenomenal job. We worked with the governors. Oh, really, go take a look. The governor said I did a phenomenal job, most of them said that they attract people that would not be necessarily on my side, said that President Trump's a phenomenal job. We did. We got the gowns, we got the masks, we made the ventilators -- you wouldn't have made ventilators -- and now we're weeks away from a vaccine. We're doing therapeutics already, fewer people are dying when they get sick, far fewer people are dying. We've done a great job. The only thing I haven't done a good job, and that's because of the fake news, no matter what you say to them, they give you a bad press on, it's just fake news. They give you good press, they give me bad press, because that's the way it is, unfortunately. I don't care. I've gotten used to it. But I'll tell you, Joe, you could never have done the job that we did, you don't have it in your blood. You could have never done that yet.

21:30 BIDEN

I know how to do the job. I know how to get the job done.

TRUMP

Well you didn't do very well in swine flu. H1N1. A disaster.

21:38 BIDEN

14,000 people died, not 200,000. There was no economic recession. We didn't shut down the economy. This is his economy, it's been shut down. The reason it’s shut down is because -- look you folks at home. How many of you got up this morning and had an empty chair at the kitchen table because someone died at COVID. How many of you are in a situation where you lost your mom or dad and you couldn't even speak to the nurse holding the phone up so you could in fact say goodbye. By the way, his own CDC director says, we could lose as many as another 200,000 people between now and the end of the year, and he held up he said, if we just wear a mask we can save half those numbers -- just just a mask. And by the way, in terms of the, the whole notion of a vaccine. We prefer a a vaccine, but I don't trust him at all, and neither do you, I know you don't. What we trust is a scientist.

TRUMP

You don't trust Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer?

22:44 WALLACE

And let me, let me move on to questions about the future, because you both have touched on one of the -- two of the questions I'm going to ask. Focusing on the future first, President Trump, you have repeatedly either contradicted or been at odds with some of your government’s top scientists. The week before last, the head of the Centers for Disease Control, Dr. Redfield, said it would be summer before the vaccine would become generally available to the public. You said that he was confused and mistaken. Those are your two words. But Dr. Slaoui, the head of your operation warp speed, has said exactly the same thing. Are they both wrong?

23:24 TRUMP

Well I've spoken to the companies, and we can have it a lot sooner. It's a very political thing because people like this would rather make it political and save less. It is a very political thing I've spoken to Pfizer, I've spoken to all of the people that you have to speak to -- we have great -- Moderna, Johnson and Johnson, and others. They can go faster than that by lot. It can become very political, because the left or I don't know --

WALLACE

Head of your operation warp speed, Dr. Slaoui --

TRUMP

I disagree with him. No, I disagree with both of them. And he didn't say that. He said it could be there but it could also be -- I had him in my office two days ago.

23:58 WALLACE

He talked about the summer, sir, before -- it's generally available -- .

TRUMP

He said it’s a possibility that we'll have the answer before November 1. It could also be after that. We're gonna deliver it right away. We have the military all set up -- logistically, they're all set up. We have our military that delivers soldiers, and they could do 200,000 a day. They're going to be --

BIDEN

This is the same man who told you--

TRUMP

It's all set up.

BIDEN

He said this would be gone away. Whether it'd be gone -- miraculously, like a miracle. By the way, maybe you could inject some bleach in your arm and that would take care of it.

24:32 TRUMP

That was said sarcastically, you know that. That was said sarcastically.

BIDEN

And so here's the deal. This man is talking about a vaccine. Every serious, every serious company is talking about, maybe having the vaccine done by the end of the year, but the distribution of that vaccine will not occur until sometime beginning or the middle of next year to get it out. If we get the vaccine. And pray to god we will. Pray god we will.

24:56 WALLACE

Mr. Vice President, I want to pick up one of the -- pick up on this question though. You say the public can trust the scientists, but they can't trust President Trump. In fact, you said that again tonight. Your running mate, Senator Harris, goes further, saying that public health experts “will be muzzled, will be suppressed. Given the fact that polls already show that people are concerned about the vaccine and are reluctant to take it, are you and your running mate Senator Harris contributing to that fear?

25:26 BIDEN

No more than the question you just asked. You pointed it out. He puts pressure and disagrees with his own scientists. Well, no, no, you can trust the scientists. She didn’t say that.

WALLACE

She said, the public experts, quote, “will be muzzled, will be suppressed.”

TRUMP

She did say that.

BIDEN

Well, that's what he's going to try to do, but there's millions of scientists -- there's thousands of scientists out there, like here at this great hospital, that don't work for him. Their job doesn't depend on him. That's not -- they’re the people, and by the way --

TRUMP

I spoke to the scientists that are in charge. They will have the vaccine very soon.

BIDEN

Do you believe for a moment what he's telling you, in light of all the lies he’s told you about the whole issue of COVID. He still hasn't even acknowledged that he knew this was happening, knew how dangerous it was going to be back in February, and he didn't even tell you. He's on record saying that he panicked, or he just looked at the stock market -- one of the two -- because guess what: a lot of people died, and a lot more are going to die unless he gets a lot smarter.

26:35 TRUMP

Did you use the word smart? So you said you went to Delaware State, but you forgot the name of your college. You didn't go to Delaware State. You graduated, either the lowest or almost the lowest in your class. Don't ever use the word smart with me, don't ever use that word.

BIDEN

Oh, give me a break.

TRUMP

Because you know what, there's nothing smart about you, Joe. 47 years, you've done nothing.

BIDEN

Well, let's have this debate. You would’ve had --

TRUMP

Let me just tell you something. If you would have had the charge of what I was put through -- I had to close the greatest economy in the history of our country. And by the way, now it's being built again --

WALLACE

We’ll talk about the economy in the next segment, sir.

TRUMP

It's going up fast --

WALLACE

Okay. When it comes to how the virus has been handled, so far, the two of you have taken very different approaches, and this is going to affect how the virus is handled going forward, by whichever of you ends up becoming the next president. I want to quickly go through several of those reopenings, Vice President Biden, you have been much more reluctant than President Trump about reopening the economy and school. Why, sir?

BIDEN

Because he doesn’t have a plan. If I were running, I’d know what the plan is. You've got to provide these businesses the ability to have the money to be able to reopen with a PPE, as well as with sanitation they need. You have to provide --

TRUMP

Tell that to Nancy Pelosi.

27:51 BIDEN

Will he just shush for a minute.

TRUMP

Tell it to Nancy Pelosi. And Schumer.

27:59 BIDEN

Nancy Pelosi and Schumer -- they have a plan. He won't even meet with them. The Republicans won't meet with them in the Senate. But he sits in his golf course -- I mean, literally, think about it --

TRUMP

You probably play more than I do, Joe.

WALLACE

What about this question of reopenings, and the fact that --

TRUMP

Well, he wants to shut down this country. And I want to keep it open. And we did great --

BIDEN

You need to shut it down --

28:22 TRUMP

Wait a minute. Let me shut you down for a second, Joe. Just for one second.

28:26 TRUMP

We want to -- he wants to shut down the country. We just went through it. We had to because we didn't know anything about the disease. Now, we’ve found that elderly people with heart problems and diabetes and different problems are very, very vulnerable. We learned a lot -- young children aren't, even younger people aren't. We've learned a lot. But he wants to shut it down. More people will be hurt by continuing -- if you look at Pennsylvania, if you look at certain states that have been shut down -- they have Democrat governors all. One of the reasons they’re shut down is because they want to keep it shut down until after the election. This is political.

WALLACE

I wonder what's --

TRUMP

Those states, those states are not doing well that are shut down.

WALLACE

Gentlemen, we’re going to go on to another subject. You have begun to increasingly question the effectiveness of masks as a disease preventer, and in fact recently you have cited the, the issue of waiters touching their masks and touching plates. Are you questioning the effectiveness of masks?

TRUMP

No, you have to understand -- if you look, I mean, I have a mask right here. I put the mask on it, you know what I think I need it. As an example, everybody's had a test, and you've had social distancing and all of the things that you have to, but I wear a mask, when needed -- when needed, I wear masks. I don't -- I don’t wear masks like him. Every time you see him, he's got a mask. He could be speaking 200 feet away from me, and he shows up with the biggest mask I've ever seen.

29:51 WALLACE

Vice President Biden, go ahead, sir.

BIDEN

Look, the way to open businesses is give them the wherewithal to be able to open. We provided money --

WALLACE

I was asking, sir, about masks.

BIDEN

Oh. Masks -- masks make a big difference. His own head of the CDC said if we just wore masks between now -- if everybody wore masks and social distancing between now and January, we'd probably save up to 100,000 lives. It matters,

TRUMP

And they've also said the opposite. They've also said the --

BIDEN

No serious person has said the opposite --

TRUMP

What about Dr. Fauci? Dr. Fauci said the opposite.

BIDEN

He did not say the opposite.

30:27 TRUMP

He said very strongly: Masks are not good. Then he changed his mind. He's admitted -- I’m ok with masks.

WALLACE

I want to talk about one last subject, because your different approaches have even affected the way that you have campaigned. President Trump, you're holding the large rallies, with crowds packed together thousands of people.

30:44 TRUMP

Outside.

WALLACE

Outside. Yes, sir. Great. Vice President Biden, you are holding much smaller events with --

TRUMP

Cause nobody will show up.

WALLACE.

People with --

TRUMP

Nobody shows up to his rallies.

WALLACE

In any case, why you’re holding the big rallies, why you're not. You goes first, sir.

31:00 TRUMP

Because people want to hear what I have to say, I mean, 25, 35,000 people show up at airports. We use airports.

WALLACE

Are you not worried about the disease, though, sir.

31:13 TRUMP

Well, so far we have had no problem whatsoever. It's outside -- that's a big difference according to the experts. And we do them outside, we have tremendous crowds, as you see. I mean every -- and literally on 24 hours notice -- and Joe does the circles and has three people some place.

BIDEN

By the way, did you see, one of the last reboot rallies he had -- a reporter came up to him to ask him a question, he said, ‘No no no. Stand back. Put on your mask, put on a mask. Have you been tested? I'm way, way far away from those other people.’ That's what he said. I can't, I'm gonna be okay. He not worried about you. He's not worried about the people out there --

TRUMP

We had no negative, no negative effect. We've had no negative effect, and we've had, 35 40,000, people at some of these rallies.

WALLACE

Just finish off because I want to move on to our next --

BIDEN

Yes, I would. He's been totally irresponsible the way in which he has handled the social distancing, and people wearing masks, basically encouraged them not to. And he's a fool on that.

TRUMP

If you could get the crowds, you would’ve done the same thing, but you can't -- nobody cares, nobody cares.

WALLACE

Gentlemen, can we move on to the economy. The economy is, I think it's fair to say, is recovering faster than expected from the shutdown much in the second quarter. The unemployment rate fell to 8.4% last month. The Federal Reserve says the hit to growth which is going to be there is not going to be nearly as big as they had expected. President Trump, you say we are in a V shaped recovery. Vice President Biden you say it's more of a K shape. What difference does that mean to the American people in terms of the economy. President Trump, in this segment, you go first.

32:56 TRUMP

So we built the greatest economy in history. We close it down because of the China plague, when the plague came in we closed it down, which was very hard, psychologically to do. He didn't think we should close it down, and he was wrong, again. To me it -- people would be dead now, instead of still 204,000 people is too much, one person is too much, should have never happened from China. But what happened is we've closed it down and now we're reopening, and we're doing record business. We had 10.4 million people in a four month period that we've put back into the workforce. That's a record the likes of which nobody's ever seen before, and he wants to close down the -- he will shut it down again. He will destroy this country, you know, a lot of people, between drugs and alcohol and depression, when you start shutting it down and you take a look at what's happening in some of your Democrat run states where they have these tough shutdowns, and I'm telling you it's because they don't want to open it. One of them came out last week, you saw that, said they’ll open up November 9. Why November 9? Because it's after the election. They think they're hurting us by keeping them closed. They're hurting people. People know what to do. They can social distance, they can wash their hands, they can wear masks -- they can do whatever they want, but they can open these states up. When you look at North Carolina, when you look at -- these governors are under siege in Michigan and a couple of others. You gotta open the states up. It's not fair. You're talking about almost like being in prison. And you look at what's going on with divorce, look at what's going on with alcoholism and drugs. It's a very, very sad thing. And he'll close down the whole country, this guy will close down the whole country and destroy our country. Our country is coming back incredibly well, setting records as it does it. We don't need somebody to come in and say let's shut it down.

WALLACE

Alright, your two minute sir, we're now moved to you. As I, as I said posing the question, the president says it's a V shape recovery, you say it's a K shape recovery. What's the difference?

BIDEN

The difference is millionaires and billionaires like him, in the middle of COVID crisis, have done very well. The billionaires array have made another $300 billion. Because of his profligate tax proposal and you only focus on the market. But you folks at home, you folks living in Scranton and Claymont -- all the small towns and working class towns in America. How well are you doing? This guy paid a total of $750 in taxes.

WALLACE

I understand. You've agreed to the two minutes, so please let him have them.

BIDEN

I get my time back? The fact is that he is in fact worked on this in a way that he's going to be the first president in the United States to leave office, I mean fewer jobs in his administration than when he became president. Fewer jobs than when he became president. The first one in American history. Secondly, the people who have lost their jobs are those people who have been on the front lines, those people who have been saving our lives, those people who have went out there dying, people who have been putting themselves in the way to make sure that we could all try to make it. The idea that he is consistent, that we go forward and open when you have almost half the states in America with a significant increase in COVID desks and COVID cases in the United States of America, and he wants to open it up more. Why does he want to open it up? Why doesn't he take care of the American -- you can't fix the economy until you fix the COVID crisis, and he has no intention of doing anything about making it better for you all at home, in terms of your health and your safety. Schools -- why aren't schools open? Because it costs a lot of money to open them safely. You know, they were going to give his administration was going to give the teachers and school students masks. Then they decided, no, couldn't do that, because it's not a national emergency, not a national emergency. They've done nothing to help small businesses, nothing. They're closing. One is six is now gone. He ought to get on the job, and take care of the needs of the American people, so we can open safely.

WALLACE

Right. Your time is up, sir.

TRUMP

I need to respond to that.

WALLACE

Well, you both have two minutes, sir.

37:02 TRUMP

Excuse me. He made a statement. People want their schools, no, people want their schools open. They don't want to be shut down. They don't want their state shut down. They want their restaurants. I look at New York. It's so sad what's happening in New York, it's almost like a ghost town. And I'm not sure I can ever recover what they've done in New York. People want their places open. They want to get back to their lives.

BIDEN

They want to be safe.

TRUMP

They’ll be careful. But they want their schools -- I'm the one that brought back football, by the way, I brought it back Big Ten football. It was me, and I'm very happy to do it. People on all sides are very proud of me, and you don't want to --

WALLACE

Gentlemen, we’re going to get to your economic plans going forward in a moment but first, Mr. President, As you well know, there's a new report that in 2016, the year you were elected president, and 2017, your first year as president, that you paid $750 a year in federal income tax, each of those years. I know that you pay a lot of other taxes, but I'm asking you the specific question: Is it true that you paid $750 in federal income taxes, each of those two years.

TRUMP

I paid millions of dollars in taxes. Millions of dollars of income tax. And let me just tell you, there was a story in one of the papers. I paid $38 million one year. I paid 27 million one year --

BIDEN

Show us your tax returns.

TRUMP

I went -- you'll see it as soon as it's finished, you'll see it. You know, what you want to do -- go to the board of elections. There's 118 page or so report that says everything I have, every bank I have -- I'm totally underleveraged because the assets are extremely good, and we have a very, we have a --

WALLACE

I’m asking a specific question, a specific question, which is --

TRUMP

Let me tell you, that I understand --

38:49 WALLACE

No, Mr. President. I'm asking the question. Will you tell us how much you paid in federal income taxes in 2016 and 2017?

38:59 TRUMP

Millions of dollars.

39:00 WALLACE

You paid millions of dollars?

39:02 TRUMP

Millions of dollars. Millions of dollars. And you'll get to see it. And you’ll get to see it.

39:05 BIDEN

When?

39:06 TRUMP

But let me tell you, Chris. Let me just say something. It was the tax laws-- I don't want to pay tax. Before I came here, I was a private developer. I was a private business people. Like every other private person, unless they’re stupid, they go through the laws and that's what it is. He passed a tax bill that gave us all these privileges for depreciation, and for tax credits. We built a building and we get tax credits, like the hotel on Pennsylvania Avenue. You get an asset, which by the way, was given to me by the Obama administration, if you can believe that. Now the man got fired up right after that happened but--

39:43 WALLACE

Vice President Biden, do you want to respond?

39:45 BIDEN

I do want to respond. Look, the tax code that made him, put him in a position that he pays less tax to the school teacher, make them, the money a school teacher makes. Is because of-- He says he's smart because he can take advantage of the tax code. And he does take advantage of the tax code, but that's why I'm going to eliminate the Trump tax cuts. And we're going to eliminate those tax cuts and make sure that we invest in the people who, in fact, need the help. People out there need help--

40:15 TRUMP

But why did you do it over the last 25 years? Why doesn’t he do it over the last 25 years?

40:19 BIDEN

Because you were president-- Because you were president and destroyed things up.

40:22 TRUMP

You were a senator--

40:24 BIDEN

You are the worst president America’s ever had

40:26 TRUMP

Let me just say Joe I've done more in, in 47 months, I've done more than you've done in 47 years, Joe. We've done things that you never even thought of doing, including fixing the broken military that you gave me, to taking care of the vets--

40:30 WALLACE

We’re talking -- Mr. President, we're talking about the economy. I'd like to ask you about your plans going forward. Because Mr. Vice President, your economic plan, if you were to be elected president, focuses a lot on big government. Big taxes. Big spending. I want to focus first on the taxes. You propose more than $4 trillion over a decade in new taxes on individuals making more than $400,000 a year and on corporations. President Trump says that that kind of an increase in taxes is going to hurt the economy as it's just coming out of a recession.

41:14 BIDEN

Well, just take a look at what is the analysis done by Wall Street firms points out that my economic plan would create 7 million more jobs than his in four years, number one. And number two, it would create an additional $1 trillion in economic growth because it would be about buying American. And we have to. We're gonna make-- The Federal government spends $600 billion a year on everything from ships, to steel, to build, to the like. And under my proposal, we're going to make sure that every penny of that has to be made by a--

41:50 WALLACE

Respectfully, sir. I’m talking about taxes, not spending.

41:54 BIDEN

Well, by the way, I'm gonna eliminate a significant number of the tax. I'm gonna make the, the corporate tax 28%, shouldn't be 21%. You have 19 companies--91 companies, federal, I mean in the fortune 500, who don't pay a single penny in tax making billions of dollars.

42:11 TRUMP

Why didn’t you do it when you were vice president with Obama?

42:15 BIDEN

Because, because you in fact passed that. That was your tax proposal.

42:18 TRUMP

I got it done and you know what happened? Our economy boomed like it's never boomed --

42:23 WALLACE

Mr. President, Mr. President, let me pick up on that. You would continue your free market approach, lower taxes, more deregulation, correct?

42:32 BIDEN

Not lower taxes for the American people.

42:46 WALLACE

But in Obama's economy booming. It turns out that in Obama's final three years as president more jobs were created. A million and a half more jobs than in the first three years of your presidency.

42:48 TRUMP

They had the slowest recovery. Since 19 -- economic recovery, since 1929. It was the slowest recovery. Also, they took over something that was down here. All you have to do is turn on the lights and you pick up a lot, but they had the slowest economic recovery since 1929. Let me tell you about the stock market. When the stock market goes up, that means jobs. It also means 401k's. If you got in, if you ever became president with your ideas -- You want to terminate my taxes? I'll tell you what, you’ll lose half of the companies that have poured in here will leave. And plenty of companies that are already here they'll leave for other places. They will leave, and you will have a depression, the likes of which you've never seen.

43:29 BIDEN

Look, we inherited the worst recession, short of a depression, in American history. I was asked to bring it back. We were able to have an economic recovery, the crazy jobs you're talking about. He comes in on a booming economy. He blew it. He blew it.

43:44 TRUMP

It wasn’t booming. It wasn’t booming.

43:49 WALLACE

Sir, wait. Wait. Is it fair to say he blew it when, when there was record low unemployment before COVID?

43:57 BIDEN

Yeah. Yeah, because what he did, even before COVID, manufacturing went in the hole. Manufacturing went in the hole--

44:04 TRUMP

Excuse me, Chris. Wait, Chris. They said it would take?

44:05 BIDEN

Number one, number two, number three --

44:09 TRUMP

No, you’re number two. Chris, Chris.

44:12 BIDEN

This guy --

44:13 TRUMP

They said it was a miracle to bring back manufacturing, I brought back 700,000 jobs. They brought back nothing. They gave up on manufacturing --

44:20 BIDEN

We did not give up. I'm the guy who brought back the automobile industry.

44:23 TRUMP

He totally gave up on the auto industry --

44:24 WALLACE

Alright, let him --

44:26 BIDEN

We brought back, I was asked to bring back, Chrysler and General Motors. We brought them back right here in the state of Ohio and Michigan. He blew it. They're gone. He blew it. And in fact, they're going --

44:34 TRUMP

Ohio had the best year it's ever had last year. Michigan had the best year they've ever had --

44:39 BIDEN

That is not true.

44:40 TRUMP

Many car companies came in from Germany, from China. They went to Michigan, went to Ohio.

44:47 WALLACE

Mr. Vice President --

44:48 BIDEN

And so, you take a look at what he's actually done. He's done very little. His trade deals are the same way. He talks about these great trade deals. You know, he talks about the art of the deal. China's made, perfected the art of the steel. We have a higher deficit with China now than we did before. We have the highest trade deficit with Mexico --

45:06 TRUMP

China ate your lunch --

45:07 WALLACE

Alright, gentlemen --

45:09 TRUMP

China ate your lunch, Joe. No wonder your son goes in and he takes out what he takes out, billions of dollars. Takes out billions of dollars to manage. He makes millions of dollars. And also, while we're at it, why is it, just out of curiosity, the mayor of Moscow’s wife gave your son $3.5 million? What did he do to deserve it? What did he do --

45:34 WALLACE

You asked a question. Let him answer.

45:36 BIDEN

None of that is true.

45:38 TRUMP

Oh, really?

45:39 WALLACE

Mr. President. Mr. President, please. You asked a question--

45:41 BIDEN

Totally discredited. Totally discredited and by the way --

45:46 TRUMP

He did get $3.5 million, Joe?

45:48 WALLACE

Mr. Vice -- Mr. President --

45:49 TRUMP

He got $3.5 million.

BIDEN

That is not true.

TRUMP

Oh, really?

45:52 WALLACE

Mr. President. It's an, it's an open discussion, please. You --

45:55 TRUMP

No. It’s a fact.

45:57 WALLACE

Well, you’ve raised an issue. Let the vice president answer.

45:59 BIDEN

Totally discredit --

TRUMP

-- $183,000a month? With no experience and energy?

46:07 WALLACE

Mr. President, let him answer.

46:08 BIDEN

My son did nothing wrong --

46:09 TRUMP

Yes, he did --

46:10 WALLACE

Mr. President, let him answer.

46:12 BIDEN

He doesn’t want to let me answer because he knows I have the truth. His position has been totally, thoroughly discredited --

46:17 TRUMP

By who? The media.

46:20 BIDEN

By everyone, well by the media, by our allies, by the World Bank, by eh- by everyone has discredited. Matter of fact.

46:30 WALLACE

Mr. President, please stop.

46:30 BIDEN

Matter of fact, even the people who testified under oath.

46:32 TRUMP

So let me ask you this --

46:39

He testified under oath and his administration said, I did my job and I did very well.

46:45 TRUMP

I don’t know who they are --

46:46 BIDEN

Well I'll give you the list of the people who testified. Sir, you’ve already fired most of them because they did their jobs.

46:53 TRUMP

Well some people don’t --

46:56 WALLACE

Wait a minute, you get the final word.

46:57 BIDEN

Well, it's hard to get any word with this clown, excuse me, this person.

47:00 TRUMP

Let me just say --

47:02 WALLACE

No, no, Mr. President. Mr. President.

47:06 BIDEN

That is simply not true.

47:07 TRUMP

Why did he deserve three and a half million for Moscow?

47:08 BIDEN

Look, here's the deal. I want to talk about families and ethics. I don't want to do that. I mean his family we could talk about all night. His family --

47:18 TRUMP

My family, my family lost a fortune coming down and helping us with government and

47:23 WALLACE

Mr. President.

47:24 TRUMP

Every single one of them lost --

47:26 BIDEN

This is not about his family or my family. It’s about your family.

47:30 TRUMP

Three and a half million dollars.

47:31 Biden

That's not true. It doesn't want to talk about what you need, you, the American people. It's about you. That's what we're talking about.

47:41 WALLACE

Alright, that's the end of this segment. We're moving on. Mr. President --

47:47 TRUMP

Can I be honest? It's very important to --

47:49 BIDEN

Try to be honest.

47:50 WALLACE

No, the answer the question is no. No, I, sir.

47:54 TRUMP

-- with a billion dollars.

47:56 BIDEN

That is absolutely not true --

48:00 WALLACE

Gentleman I hate to raise my voice, but why should I be different than the two of you? So here's the deal, we have six segments. We have ended that segment, we're going to go to the next segment. In that segment, you each are gonna have two uninterrupted moments. In those two interrupted minutes, Mr. President, you can say anything you want. I can asked a question about race but if you want to answer about something else, go ahead. But we, I think that the country would be better served if we allowed both people to speak with fewer interruption. I'm appealing to you sir to do that.

48:34 TRUMP

Well, him too.

48:36 WALLACE

Well, frankly, you've been doing more interrupting-

48:38 TRUMP

Well that’s alright, but he does plenty.

48:40 WALLACE

Well, less than, sir less than you have. Let's please continue on. The issue of race. Vice President Biden you say that President Trump's response to the violence in Charlottesville three years ago, when he talked about very fine people on both sides, was what directly led you to launch this run for president,

49:05 TRUMP

Oh yeah sure.

49:05 WALLACE

President Trump, you have often said that you believe you have done more for black Americans than any president with the possible exception of Abraham Lincoln. My question for the two of you is why should voters trust you, rather than your opponent, to deal with the race issues facing this country over the next four years? Vice President Biden, you go first.

49:26 BIDEN

It's about equity and equality. It’s about decency. It's about the Constitution. And we have never walked away from trying to quite require equity for everyone, equality for the whole America.

But we've never accomplished it, but we've never walked away from it like he has done. It is true, the reason I got into the race was with most people. Close your eyes. Remember what those people look like coming out in the fields carrying torches. Their veins bulgy. Spewing, just spewing anti Semitic bile and accompanied by the Ku Klux Klan. A young woman got killed and when they asked the president what he thought he said there were very fine people on both sides. No presidents ever said anything like that.

50:09 WALLACE

One second, sir.

50:10 BIDEN

Second point I'd make, is that when Floyd was killed -- when Mr. Floyd was killed, there was a peaceful protest in front of the White House. What did he do? He came out of his bunker, had the military to use tear gas on em so he could walk across to a church and hold up a bible. And then what happened after that? The Bishop of that very church said that it was a disgrace. The general who was with him said he only, all he ever wants to do is divide people, not unite people at all. This is a president who has used everything as a dog whistle to try to generate racist hatred, racist division. This is a man who in fact, he talks about helping African Americans, one in 1000 African Americans has been killed because of the coronavirus. And if he doesn't do something quickly by the end of the year, one in 500 will have been killed. One in 500 African Americans. This man? This man is a savior of African Americans? This man cares at all? This man has done virtually nothing. Look, the fact is that you have to look at what he talks about. You have to look at what he did. And what it did has been disastrous for the African American community. So --

51:24 WALLACE

President Trump you have two minutes. Why should Americans trust you over your opponent to deal with race?

51:30 TRUMP

He did a crime bill, 1994, where you call them super predators. African Americans are super predators. And they've never forgotten it. They've never forgotten it, Joe.

51:40 WALLACE

Sir, it’s his two minutes.

51:41 TRUMP

So you did that and they called you super predator. And I'm letting people out of jail now that -- You have treated the African American population, community -- You've treated the black community about as bad as anybody in this country. You did the 199 -- And that's why, if you look at the polls, I'm doing better than any Republican has done in a long time. Because they saw what you did. You called them super predators, and you've called them worse than that. Because you look back at your testimony over the years you've called them a lot worse than that. As far as the church is concerned and as far as the generals are concerned, we just got the support of 200-250 military leaders in total support. Law enforcement, almost every law enforcement group in the United States. I have Florida, I have Texas, I have, Ohio. I have every, excuse me. Portland, the sheriff just came out today and he said ‘I support President Trump.’ I don't think you have any law enforcement. You can't even say the word law enforcement because if you say those words, you're gonna lose all of your radical left supporters. And why aren't you saying those words, Joe? Why don't you say the words law enforcement? Because you know what, if they called us in Portland, we would put out that fire in a half an hour. But they won't do it because they’re run by radical left Democrats. If you look at Chicago, if you look at any place you want to look, Seattle, they heard we were coming in the following day and they put up their hands and we got back Seattle. Minneapolis, we got it back, Joe. Because we believe in law and order but you don’t. The top 10 cities, and just about the top 40 cities are run by Democrats. Just radical left. And they've got you wrapped around their finger, Joe. To a point where you don't say anything about law and order. And I'll tell you what, the people of this country want and demand law and order and you're afraid to even say it.

53:30 WALLACE

Alright, I want to return to the question of race. Vice President Biden, after the grand jury in the Brianna Taylor case decided not to charge any of the police with homicide, you said it raises the question “Whether justice could be equally applied in America”. Do you believe that there is a separate but unequal system of justice for blacks in this country?

53:54 BIDEN

Yes, there is a systemic injustice in this country. In education, in the law enforcement and the way in which it’s enforced. But look, the vast majority of police officers are good, decent honor men and women that risk their lives every day to take care of us. But there are some bad apples and when they occur, when they find them, they have to be sorted out. They have to be held accountable. They have to be held accountable. And what I'm going to do is president of the United States is call together, an entire group of people at the White House. Well, everything from the civil rights groups, to the police officers, to police chiefs, and we're going to work this out. We're going to work this out so we change the way in which we have more transparency. And when these things happen, these cops aren't happy to see what happened to George Floyd. These cops aren't happy to see what happened to Brown and Taylor. Most don't like it, but we have to have a system report, held accountable. When, and by the way, violence in response is never appropriate. Never appropriate. Peaceful protests is. Violence is never appropriate.

55:00 TRUMP

What is peaceful protest? When they run through the middle of town and burned down your stores and kill people all over the place?

55:04 WALLACE

Mr. President, Mr. President. President Trump, I’d like to continue with this. I promise we're gonna get to the issue of law and order in a moment. Your administration directed federal agencies to end racial sensitivity training that addresses white privilege or critical race theory. Why did you decide to do that, end with sensitivity training? And do you believe that there is systemic racism in this country, sir?

55:37 TRUMP

I ended it because it's racist. I ended it because a lot of people were complaining that they were asked to do things that were absolutely insane. That it was a radical revolution that was taking place in our military, in our schools, all over the place. And you know it and so does everybody else. And he would know it.

55:54 WALLACE

What is radical -- What is radical about racial sensitivity training?

55:59 TRUMP

If you were a certain person, you had no status in life, it's sort of a reversal. And if you look at the people, we would pay people hundreds of thousands of dollars to teach very bad ideas and frankly very sick ideas. And really, they were teaching people to hate our country. And I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to allow that to happen. We have to go back to the core values of this country. They were teaching people that our country is a horrible place, it's a racist place, and they were teaching people to hate our country. And I'm not gonna allow that to happen.

56:31 WALLACE

Vice President Biden?

56:33 BIDEN

Nobody’s doing that. He's just, he’s racist. Here's the deal, I know a lot more --

56:38 WALLACE

Let him finish.

56:40 BIDEN

The fact is that there is racial insensitivity. People have to be made aware of what other people feel like, what insults them, what is demeaning to them. It's important that people know they don't want to, many people don't want to hurt other people's feelings. But it makes a big difference. It makes a gigantic difference in the way a child is able to grow up and have a sense of a sense of self esteem. It's a little bit like how this guy and his friends looked down on so many people. They look down their nose on people like Irish Catholics like me who grew up in Scranton. They look down on people who don't have money. They look down on people who are of a different faith. They look down on people who are a different color. In fact, we're all Americans. The only way we're going to bring this country together is bring everybody. There's nothing we cannot do, if we do it together. We can take this on and we can defeat racism.

57:35 WALLACE

Vice President -- I mean, President Trump, sir.

57:37 TRUMP

During the Obama-Biden administration, there was tremendous division. There was hatred, you look at Ferguson, you look at, you go to very many places. Look at Oakland. Look what happened in Oakland. Look what happened in Baltimore. Look what happened- Frankly, it was more violent than what I'm even seeing now,

57:55 BIDEN

Oh my god, this is ridiculous.

57:56 TRUMP

But the reason is that the Democrats that run these cities don’t want to talk, like you, about law and order.

58:03 BIDEN

Violent crime -- Violent crime --

58:03 TRUMP

You still haven’t mentioned, are you in favor of law and order?

58:04 BIDEN

I'm in favor of law. You --

58:07 TRUMP

Are you in favor of law and order?

58:13 BIDEN

Law and order with justice where people get treated fairly. And the fact of the matter is violent crime went down 17%, 15% percent in our administration. It’s gone up on his watch.

58:24 TRUMP

It’s gone down much more.

58:28 WALLACE

Alright, alright. Mr. President -- Mr. President, you’re now gonna be very happy because we’re gonna talk about law and order.

58:34 TRUMP

The places we had trouble with Democratic-run cities --

58:39 WALLACE

That's exactly my question. There have been a dramatic increase in homicides in America this summer, particularly. And you often blame that on Democratic mayors and Democratic governors, but in fact there have been equivalent spikes in Republican-led cities, like Tulsa, and Fort Worth. So the question is, is this really a party issue?

58:59 TRUMP

I think it's a party issue. You could bring in a couple of examples, but if you look at Chicago, what's going on in Chicago where 53 people were shot and eight died. Shot. If you look at New York where it's going up like these never seen anything. The numbers are going up 100, 150, 200% crime. It is crazy what's going on, and he doesn't want to say law and order because he can't. Because he'll lose his radical left supporters, and once he does that it's over with. But if he ever got to run this country, and they ran it the way he would want to run it, we would have -- Our suburbs would be gone, our suburbs would be gone, and you would see problems like you’ve never-

59:38: BIDEN

He wouldn’t know a suburb unless he took a wrong turn.

59:39 TRUMP

Oh, I know suburbs.

55:43 BIDEN

I was raised in the suburbs. This is not 1950. All of these dog whistles and racism don't work anymore. Suburbs are by and large integrated. There's many people today driving their kids to soccer practice, or to black and white and Hispanic in the same car, as there have been any time in the past. What really is the threat to the suburbs and their safety has to deal with COVID? They're dying in the suburbs. His failure to deal with the environment. They're being flooded. They're being burned out, because he has refusal to do anything. That's why the suburbs are in trouble.

1:00:15 WALLACE

I do want to talk about this issue of law and order, though. And in the joint recommendation that came from the Biden-Bernie Sanders Task Force you talk about “reimagining policing”. First of all, what does re-imagining policing mean? And do you support- Let me finish the question. What does re-imagining policing mean? And do you support the Black Lives Matter call for for community control of policing?

1:0046 BIDEN

Look, what I support is the police having the opportunity to deal with the problems they face. And I'm not totally opposed to defending the police officers. Matter of fact, police, local police, they only want defunding in his budget calls for a $400 million cut in local law enforcement assistance. They need more assistance. They need when they show up for a 911 call to have someone with him as a psychologist or psychiatrist to keep them from having to use force and be able to talk people down. We have to have community police, like we had before, where the officers get to know the people in the communities. That's when crime went down. It didn’t go up, it went down. And so we have to be --

1:01:25 TRUMP

That’s not what they're talking about, Chris. That’s not what they’re talking about. That’s about defunding the police.

1:01:31 BIDEN

That is not true.

1:01:35 TRUMP

He doesn't have any law - He has no law enforced -

1:01:39 BIDEN

That is not true. That’s not --

1:01:39 TRUMP

Oh really? Who do you have? Name one group that supports you. Name one group that came out and supported you, go ahead, like we have time.

1:01:46 BIDEN

We don't have time to do anything --

1:01:53 WALLACE

Gentleman, I’m gonna take back control. And I want to get to another subject, which is the issue of protests in many cities that have turned violent. In Portland, Oregon, especially, we had more than 100 straight days of protests, which I think you would agree about peaceful protests. Many of those turned into riots. Mr. Vice President, you say that people who commit crimes should be held accountable. The question I have though is as the Democratic nominee, and earlier tonight you said that you are the Democratic Party right now. Have you ever called the Democratic mayor of Portland the Democratic governor of Oregon and said ‘Hey, you gotta stop this. Bring in the National Guard. Do whatever it takes. That you'd stop the days and months of violence in Portland?

1:02:40 BIDEN

I don't hold public office now. I am a former Vice President. I've made it clear, I've made it clear in my public statements that the violence should be prosecuted. Anyone who committed it --

1:02:53 WALLACE

But you've never called for the people- Excuse me, sir. You’ve never called for the leaders in Portland, and in Oregon, to call in the national office and knock off 100 days of riots.

1:03:05 BIDEN

They can, in fact, take care of it if he’d just stay out of the way. Look-

1:03:11 TRUMP

Oh really? Oh really? -- The killer of a young man in the middle of the street and they shot him. For three days Portland didn’t do anything.

1:03:18 WALLACE

President Trump. President Trump. I interrupt- President Trump

1:03:22 TRUMP

I had to send the US Marshals to take care of business --

1:03:24 WALLACE

Go ahead, sir

1:03:25 BIDEN

And by the way, you know, his own former spokesperson said, you know, riots and chaos and violence help his cause. That's what this is all about.

1:03:34 TRUMP

I don’t know who said that.

1:03:35 BIDEN

I do.

1:03:35 TRUMP

Who?

1:03:36 BIDEN

I think it was Kellyanne Conway.

1:03:37 TRUMP

I don't think she said that.

1:03:39 BIDEN

She said that. And so here's, here's the point. The point is that is that that's what he is keeps trying to rile everything up. He doesn't want to calm things down. Instead of going in and talking to people and say, ‘let's get everybody together, figuring out how to deal with this’, what he does he do? He just poured gasoline on the fire. Constantly, at every single solitary time.

1:04:00 WALLACE

And to end this, button up this segment, I’m going to give you a minute to answer, sir. You have repeatedly warned us-

1:04:07 TRUMP

-answer his stuff.

1:04:08 WALLACE

You have- No, you've been talking-

1:04:11 TRUMP

He made a statement- I would love to end it.

1:04:12 WALLACE

I’m asking you- You know, sir- You know, if you want to switch seats-

1:04:17 TRUMP

Very quickly, we could do that but if - the National Guard it would be over. There’d be no problem, but they don’t want to accept the national guard.

1:04:23 WALLACE

Okay, you have repeatedly criticized the Vice President for not specifically calling out antifa and other left-wing groups. But are you willing, tonight, to condemn white supremacists and militia groups? And to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in Kenosha, as we've seen in Portland? Are you prepared specifically to do that?

1:04:46 TRUMP

Sure, I’m prepared to do it. I would say- I would say, almost everything I see is from the left-wing, not from the right wing-

1:05:55 WALLACE

So what do you, what do you say-

1:04:56 TRUMP

I'm willing to do anything I want to see peace.

1:04:57 WALLACE

Then do it, sir.

1:04:59 BIDEN

Say it, do it, say it.

1:05:00 TRUMP

You want to call them -- What do you want to call them? Give me a name, give me --

1:05:04 WALLACE

White supremacists and, white supremacists and right-wing --

1:05:07 BIDEN

The Proud Boys.

1:05:07 TRUMP

Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, somebody's got to do something about antifa and the left because this is not a right-wing problem. This is a left-wing problem

1:05:19 BIDEN

His own FBI director said -- white supremacists. Antifa is an idea not an organization. Militia --

1:05:27 TRUMP

Oh you’ve got to be kidding me

1:05:27 BIDEN

His FBI said --

1:05:28 TRUMP

Well then, you know what --

1:05:29 WALLACE

Gentlemen, we’re done, sir. We’re going to go on to the next-

1:05:39 BIDEN

Everybody in your administration tells you the truth that that’s a bad to bad idea. You have no idea.

1:05:43 TRUMP

Antifa is a dangerous, radical group --

1:05:46 WALLACE

Gentleman, we're now moving on to the Trump and Biden records.

1:05:50 TRUMP

-- they overthrow you

1:05:51 WALLACE

President, I'm gonna ask you a question. When the President seats a second term, it’s generally a referendum on his record. But Vice President Biden you'd like to quote your dad's sayings which is ‘Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative’. And in this case, sir, you are the alternative. Looking at both of your records, I'm going to ask each of you, why should voters you, President over your opponent. In this segment, President Trump you'll go first. 10 minutes.

1:06:19 TRUMP

Because there has never been an administration or president who has done more than I've done in a period of three and a half years, and that's despite the impeachment hoax. And you saw what happened today with Hillary Clinton where a whole big con job. But despite going through all these things, where at a fight both flanks, behind me and above, there has never been an administration, that's done what I've done. The greatest, before COVID came in, the greatest economy in history. Lowest unemployment numbers. Everything was good, everything was go -- And by the way, there was unity. People were calling me. For the first time in years they were calling, and they were saying ‘it's time maybe’. And then what happened? We got hit but now we're building it back up again. A rebuilding of the military including space force and all of the other things. A fixing of the VA, which was a mess under him. 308,000 people died. They didn't have proper health care. He was a mess. And we now got a 91% approval rating at the VA. Our vets, we take care of our vets. But we've rebuilt our military. The job that we've done- And I'll tell you so some people say me the most important, by the end of the first term, I'll have approximately 300 federal judges, Court of Appeals judges 300. And hopefully, three great Supreme Court judges, justices. That is a record, the likes of which very few people- And you know one of the reasons I have so many judges? Because President Obama and him left me 128 judges to fill. When you leave office, you don't leave any judges. That's like, you just don't do that. They left 128 openings. And if I were a member of his party, because they have a little different philosophy, I'd say ‘if you left us 128 openings, you can't be a good president. You can't be a good Vice President’. But I want to thank you because it gives us almost, it'll probably be above that by the end of this term, 300 judges. It's a record.

1:08:22 WALLACE

Looking at both your records, why should voters elect you president, as opposed to President Trump -- You get two minutes uninterrupted.

1:08:29 BIDEN

Under this president we become weaker, sicker. poorer, more dividing and more violent. When I was Vice President, we inherited a recession. I was asked to fix it, I did. We left a booming economy, and he caused the recession. With regard to be weaker, the fact is that I've gone head to head with Putin and made it clear to him we're not going to take any of his stuff. He's Putin’s puppy. He still refuses to even say anything to Putin about the bounty on the heads of American soldiers.

1:09:01 TRUMP

Your son --

1:09:02 WALLACE

No, no, no --

1:09:03 BIDEN

And by the way --

1:09:04 WALLACE

Mr. President. Wait a minute. Mr. President, your campaign agreed that both sides would get two answers uninterrupted. Your side agreed to it. Why don't you observe what your campaign agreed to as a ground rule. Okay, sir?

1:09:18 BIDEN

Never keeps his word.

1:09:19 WALLACE

No, I’m not asking. That was rhetorical question.

1:09:23 BIDEN

Can you go back 30 seconds?

1:09:25 WALLACE

Yeah, yes you may. Go ahead.

1:09:26 BIDEN

So, thirdly we’re poorer. The billionaires have gotten much, much more wealthy by a tune of over four three to $400 billion more, just since COVID. You in the home, you got less. You're in more trouble than you were before. In terms of being more violent, when we were in office there were 15% less violence in America than there is today. He's president of the United states. It’s on his watch. And with regard to more divided, the nation can't stay divided. We can't be this way. And speaking of my son, the way you talk about the military, the way you talk about them be losers and being, and just being suckers. My son was in Iraq. He spent a year there. He got, he got the Bronze Star. He got the Conspicuous Service Medal. He was not a loser. He was a patriot. And the people left behind there were heroes.

1:10:23 TRUMP

Really? You talking about Hunter? Are you talking about Hunter?

1:10:23 BIDEN

and I resent -- I’m talking about my son, Beau Biden. You’re talking about --

1:10:30 TRUMP

I don’t know Beau. I know Hunter. Hunter got thrown out of the military. He was thrown out, dishonorably discharged for cocaine use.

1:10:37 BIDEN

That's not true, he wasn’t dishonorably discharged. None of that is true.

1:10:39 TRUMP

-- and he didn't have a job until you became vice president. Once you became vice president he made a fortune in Ukraine, in China, in Moscow and various other places --

1:10:48 BIDEN

That is simply not true.

1:10:49 TRUMP

He made a fortune and he didn’t have a job.

1:10:50 BIDEN

My son -- My son -- My son, like a lot of people, like a lot of people you know I had a drug problem. He's overtaken it. He's fixed it. He's worked on it. And I'm proud of him.

1:11:02 TRUMP

But why was he given tens of millions of dollars?

1:11:05 BIDEN

He wasn't given tens of millions of dollars

1:11:08 WALLACE

President Trump you’ve --

1:11:11 BIDEN

Already been discredited

1:11:13 WALLACE

We've already been through this, I think the American people would rather hear about more substantial subjects. Well, you know, as the moderator sir I'm going to make a judgement call there.

1:11:20 TRUMP

-- 3.5 million dollars. Let’s talk about Moscow --

1:11:24 BIDEN

That is not true. That report is totally discredited.

1:11:25 WALLACE

Gentlemen --

1:11:27 BIDEN

Mitt Romney on that committee said it wasn't worth taxpayers money. That report was written for political reasons.

1:11:33 WALLACE

You know, I'd like to talk about climate change.

1:11:36 BIDEN

So would I --

1:11:37 WALLACE

Okay, the forest fires in the West, are raging now. They have burned millions of acres. They have displaced hundreds of thousands of people. When state officials there blame the fires on climate change, Mr. President, you said, ‘I don't think the science knows.’ Over your four years, you have pulled the U.S. out of the Paris Climate accord. You have rolled back a number of Obama environmental records. What do you believe about the science of climate change? And what will you do in the next four years to confront it?

1:12:11 TRUMP

I want crystal clean water and air. I want beautiful clean air. We have now the lowest carbon, if you look at our numbers right now, we are doing phenomenally. But I haven't destroyed our businesses, our businesses are put out of commission. If you look at the Paris accord, it was a disaster from our standpoint. And people are actually very happy about what's going on, because our businesses are doing well as far as the fires are concerned, you need forest management, in addition to everything else. The forest floors are loaded up with trees, dead trees, that a years old and they're like Tinder, and leaves and everything else. You drop a cigarette and then the whole forest burns. You've got to have forest management-

1:12:52 WALLACE

What do you, what do you believe about the science of climate change, sir?

1:12:57 TRUMP

I believe that we have to do everything we can to have immaculate air, immaculate water and do whatever else we can that's good. You know we're planting a billion trees, the billion tree project, and it's very exciting.

1:13:08 WALLACE

Do you believe that human pollution, gashouse, greenhouse gas emissions contributes to the global warming of this planet?

1:13:15 TRUMP

I think a lot of things do, but I think to an extent yes. I think, to an extent, yes. But I also think we have to do better management of our forests. Every year, I get the call. ‘California is burning California's burning.’ If that was cleaned, if that were, if you had forest management, good forest management, you wouldn't be getting those calls. You know in Europe they live that, forest cities, they call forest cities. They maintain their forests. They manage their forests. I was with the head of a major country. It's a forest city. He said, ‘Sir, we have trees that are far more, they ignite much easier than California, there shouldn't be that problem’. I spoke with the governor about it. I'm getting along very well with the governor, but he said you know at some point, he can't every year have hundreds of thousands of acres of land just burned to the ground. That's burning down because of a lack of management.

1:14:07 WALLACE

But sir, if you believe in the science of climate change, why have you rolled back the Obama Clean Power Plan, which limited carbon emissions in power plants? Why have you relaxed --

1:14:16 TRUMP

Because it was driving energy prices through the sky --

1:14:22 WALLACE

Why have you relaxed fuel economy standards that are going to create more pollution from cars?

1:14:27 TRUMP

Not really, because what's happening is the car is much less expensive and it's a much safer car. And you're talking about a tiny difference. And then what would happen, because of the cost of the car, you would have at least double and triple the number of cars purchased. We have the old slugs out there that are 10-12 years old. If you did that the car would be safer, it would be much cheaper-

1:14:48 WALLACE

In California, they simply ignored --

1:14:51 TRUMP

Take a lot of cars off the market because people would be able to afford a car. Now, so, and by the way we're gonna see how that turns out, but a lot of people agree with, many people. The car has gotten so expensive because they have computers all over the place for an extra little bit of gasoline. And I'm okay with electric cars too. I think I'm all for electric cars with big incentives or electric cars. But what they've done in California is just-

1:15:17 WALLACE

Vice President Biden I'd like you to respond to the President's climate change record, but I also want to ask you about a concern. You proposed $2 trillion in green jobs you talk about new limits, not abolishing, but new limits on fracking. Ending the use of fossil fuels to generate electricity by 2035. And zero, net emission of greenhouse gases by 2050. The president says, a lot of these things would tank the economy and cost millions of jobs.

1:15:46 BIDEN

He's absolutely wrong, number one. Number two, if in fact, when -- During our administration Recovery Act I was able to bring down the cost of renewable energy to cheaper than, or as cheap as coal, and gas, and oil. Nobody's going to build another coal fire plant in America. No one's going to build another oil fire in America. They're going to move to renewable energy, number one. Number two, we're going to make sure that we are able to take the federal fleet and turn it into a fleet that's run on their electric vehicles. Making sure that they can do that we're gonna put 500,000 charging stations in all of the highways that we're going to be building in the future. We're going to build a economy, that in fact, is going to provide for the ability, us to take 4 million buildings and make sure that they in fact are weatherized. In a way that, in fact, they'll, they'll emit significantly less gas and oil because the heat will not be going out. There’s so many things we can do now to create thousands and thousands of jobs. We can get to net zero in terms of energy production by 2035. Not only not costing people jobs, creating jobs. Creating millions of jobs. Not 15 bucks an hour, but prevailing wage. By having a new infrastructure that in fact is green. And the first thing I will do, I will rejoin the Paris accord. I will join the Paris accord because with us out look what's happening. It's all falling apart. And talk about someone who has no no relationship with foreign policy. Brazil, the rainforest to Brazil are being torn down, are being ripped down. More, more carbon is absorbed in that rainforest than every bit of carbon that's admitted the United States. Instead of doing something about that, I would be gathering up and making sure we had the countries of the world coming up with 20 billion dollars. And say, ‘Here's $20 billion. Stop, stop, tearing down the forest. And if you don't, then you're going to have significant economic consequences’.

1:17:52 WALLACE

What about the argument that President Trump basically says that you have to balance, environmental interests, and economic interests? And he's drawn a line

1:18:02 BIDEN

But if he hadn't drawn a line. He still, for example, makes sure that we- He wants to make sure that methane is not a problem. We could, you could now emit more methane without it being a problem. Methane. This is a guy who says that we don't have to have mileage standards for automobiles that exist now. He says that, the fact that it's all true and here’s the deal --

1:18:22 TRUMP

He’s talking about the Green New Deal. And it's not 2 billion or 20 billion as you said, it's $100 trillion.

1:18:31 BIDEN

I'm talking about -

1:18:31 TRUMP

You wanna rip down buildings and rebuild the buildings -- where airplanes are out of business. Where there are two car systems or where they want to take out the cows.

1:18:40 BIDEN

That’s not true. Not true. Not true. Not true.

1:18:43 TRUMP

That's not true either, right? Now, this is a, this is a 100. That's more money than our country could make in a hundred years.

1:18:50 BIDEN

That is simply not true.

1:18:55 WALLACE

Let me -- Let me -- Wait a minute, sir. I actually have studied your plan, and it includes upgrading 4 million buildings, weatherizing 2 million homes over four years, building one and a half million energy efficient homes. So the question becomes, the president said, I think some people who support the president would say, ‘That sounds like it's going to cost a lot of money and hurt the economy.’

1:19:18 BIDEN

What it's gonna do, it’s gonna create thousands and millions of jobs. Good-paying jobs-

1:19:22 WALLACE

Let him finish, sir.

1:19:23 BIDEN

He doesn’t know how to do that. The fact it’s going to create millions of good paying jobs. And these tax incentives to people to weatherize, where he wants to get her get rid of, is going to make the economy much safer. Look how much we're paying now to deal with the hurricanes, with a deal with- By the way he has an answer for hurricanes. He said, ‘Maybe we should drop a nuclear weapon on them, they may' --

1:19:44 TRUMP

I never said that you made it up. You make up a lot.

1:19:46 BIDEN

And here's the deal, we are going to be in a position where we can create, hard, hard good jobs by making sure the environment is clean, and we all are in better shape. We spend billions of dollars now, billions of dollars, on floods, hurricanes rising seas. We're in real trouble. Look what's happened just in the Midwest with these storms that come through and wipe out entire sections and counties in Iowa. They didn't happen before. There because of global warming. We make up 15% of the world's problem. We in fact- But the rest of the world we got to get them to come along. That's why we have to get back into, back into the Paris accord.

1:20:32 WALLACE

All right, gentlemen.

1:20:33 TRUMP

Chris, so why didn't he do it for 47 years? You were vice president. Why didn't you get the world- China sends up real dirt into the air. Russia does. India does. They all do. We're supposed to be good. And by the way, he made a couple of statements, the Green New Deal is 100 trillion dollar plan --

1:20:48 BIDEN

That is not my plan. The Green New Deal is not my plan.

1:20:56 WALLACE

Gentlemen, gentleman --

1:20:58 TRUMP

You said I said something about the military. He and his friends made it up, and then they went with it. I never said it. What he did is he said- He called the military stupid bastards

1:21:06 WALLACE

Mr. Vice President, Mr. Vice President -- Please, stop.

1:21:15 TRUMP

I would never say that.

1:21:18 WALLACE

Mr. Vice President answer his question his final question.

1:21:21 BIDEN

The final question is I can't remember which of all is real.

1:21:24 WALLACE

I’m having a little trouble myself. But about the economy, and about this question of what it's going to cost. The Green New Deal and the idea of what, what your environmental changes to --

1:21:38 BIDEN

The Green New Deal will pay for itself as we move forward. You're not going to build plants that in fact are great polluting plans.

1:21:44 WALLACE

Do you support the Green New Deal?

1:21:46 BIDEN

Pardon me?

1:21:47 WALLACE

Do you support the Green New Deal?

1:21:49 BIDEN

No, I don't support the Green New Deal.

1:21:50 TRUMP

Oh you don't? Well that’s a big statement. You just lost the radical left.

1:21:55 BIDEN

I support the Biden plan that I put forward.

1:21:59 WALLACE

OK.

1:22:00 BIDEN

The Biden Plan, which is different than what he calls the radical Green New Deal.

1:22:02 WALLACE

All right, gentlemen, final segment. Election integrity. As we meet tonight, millions of Americans are receiving mail-in ballots or going to vote early. How confident should we be that this will be a fair election and what are you prepared to do over the next five plus weeks, because it'll not only be the election day but also counting some ballots mailing ballots after election day. What are you prepared to do to reassure the American people that the next President will be the legitimate winner of this election? In this final segment, Mr. Vice President, you go first.

1:22:41 BIDEN

Prepared to let people vote. You should go to Iwillvote.com. Decide how they're going to vote, when they're going to vote and what means by which they're going to vote. His own Homeland Security director, as well as the FBI director, says there's no evidence at all that mail-in ballots are a source of being manipulated and cheating. They said that. The fact is that they're going to be millions of people, because of COVID, that are going to be voting by mail-in ballots, like he does by the way. He sits behind the Resolute desk and sends his ballot to Florida, number one. Number two, we're going to make sure that those people who want to vote in person are able to vote because enough poll watchers are there to make sure they can socially distance, the polls are open on time and they'll pull stay open until the votes are counted. And this is all about trying to dissuade people from voting because he's trying to scare people into thinking that it's not gonna be legitimate. Show up and vote. You will determine the outcome of this election. Vote. Vote. Vote. If you're able to vote early in your state, vote early. If you're able to vote in person, vote in person. Vote whatever way is the best way for you because you will- He cannot stop you from being able to determine the outcome of this election. Whether or not when the votes are counted, and they're all counted, that will be accepted. If I win, that will be accepted.If I lose, it will be accepted. But, by the way, if, in fact, he says he's not sure what he's gonna accept, let me tell you something, it doesn't matter. Because if we get the votes, it’s going to be all over. He's going to go. He won’t stay in power. It won't happen. It won't happen. So vote. Just make sure you understand you have it in your control to determine what this country is going to look like the next four years. Is it going to change or are we gonna get four more years of these lies?

1:24:31 WALLACE

Mr. President, two minutes.

1:24:32 TRUMP

So when I listened to Joe talking about a transition, there's been no transition from when I won. I won that election. And if you look at crooked Hillary Clinton, if you look at all of the different people, there was no transition. Because they came after me trying to do a coup. They came after me spying on my campaign. They started on the day I won and even before I won. From the day I came down the escalator with the First Lady, they were a disaster, a grace to our country. And we've caught them. We've caught them all. We've got it all on tape. We've caught them all. And by the way, you gave the idea for the Logan act against General Flynn. You better take a look at that because we caught you in a sense. And President Obama was sitting in the Oval office. He knew about it too so don't tell me about a free transition. As far as the ballots is concerned, it's a disaster. A solicited ballot. Okay, so listen it is okay. You're soliciting, you're asking they send it back, you send it back. I did that. If you have an unsolicited, they're sending millions of ballots all over the country. There’s fraud. They found them in creeks. They found some with the name Trump, just happen to have the name Trump, just the other day. In wastepaper baskets. They’re being sent all over the place. They sent two, in a Democratic area they sent out 1000 ballots. Everybody got two ballots. This is going to be a fraud like you've never seen. The other thing, it's nice for November 3, you're watching and you see who won the election. And I think we're gonna do well because people are really happy with the job they've done. But you know what, we won't know, we might not know for months. Because these balances are going to be all over. Take a look at what happened in Manhattan. Take a look at what happened in New Jersey. Take a look at what happened in Virginia and other places. They're not losing 2%, 1%, which by the way is too much. An election can be won or lost with that. They’re losing 30 and 40%. A fraud, and it's a shame. And can you imagine where they say, ‘you have to have your ballot in by November 10’. November 10. That means 7 days after the election, in theory, should have been announced. We have major states with that. All run by Democrats. All run by Democrats. It’s a rigged election.

1:26:40 WALLACE

Okay, okay, sir. President Trump, you’re gonna be able to continue. You have been charging for months and mail-in balloting is going to be a disaster. You say it's going to lead to fraud. But in 2018, the last midterm election, 3, million people voted mail-in voting. That was a quarter, more than a quarter, of all the voters that year cast their ballots by mail. Now that millions of mail-in ballots have gone out, what are you going to do about it? And are you counting on the Supreme Court, including a justice Barrett, to settle on a disputes?

1:27:17 TRUMP

Yeah, I think we're getting them to look at the ballots, differently. I don't think I want them in terms of the election itself, but for the ballots I'd say. Because what’s happening is incredible. I just heard, I read today where 1% of the ballots for 2016 were invalidated. They, they take them ‘we don't like them. we don't like them’.

1:27:36 WALLACE

There are millions of ballots going out right now.

1:27:39 TRUMP

You do a solicited ballot.

1:27:42 WALLACE

No, no, I'm asking you about the fact that millions of people --

1:27:46 TRUMP

You go and vote. You go and vote, like they used to do. You either do a solicited ballot, where you're sending it in and sending it back in and your sending. We have mailmen with lots of a- Did you see what's going on, take a look at West Virginia, mail-in ballots. They're being sold. They're being dumped in rivers. This is a horrible thing for our country. This is no -- This is not going to end well.

1:28:12 BIDEN

There is no evidence of that. Five states have had mail-in ballots in the last decade or sol, including two republican states. And you don't have to solicit the ballot. It's sent to you, and sent to your home. All we're saying is, they're saying is, that there has to be a postmark, by the time by Election Day. If it just doesn't get in until the seventh, eighth, ninth, it still should be counted. He’s just afraid of counting the votes because-

1:28:38 TRUMP

You’re wrong. You’re wrong

1:28:41 WALLACE

And I want to continue with you on this -- Vice President Biden --

1:28:44 TRUMP

Chris, he’s so wrong when he makes a statement like that

1:28:45 WALLACE

Excuse me. Vice President Biden, the biggest problem, in fact, over the years, with mail-in voting has not been fraud, historically. It has been that sizable number, sometimes hundreds of thousands of ballots, are thrown out because they have not been properly filled out or there is some other irregularity they just see through that deadline. So the question I have is, are you concerned that the Supreme Court with a justice Barrett will settle any disputes?

1:29:12 BIDEN

I'm concerned that any court would settle this. Because here's the deal, when you, when you get a ballot and you fill it out, you're supposed to have an affidavit. If you didn't know, you have someone say that this is me. You should be able to, if in fact you can verify that’s you when the, before the ballot is thrown out, that's sufficient to be able to count the ballot, because someone made a mistake in not dotting the correct i. Who they voted for, testify, say who they voted for, say to you ‘that is totally legitimate’

1:29:46 WALLACE

Alright --

1:29:49 TRUMP

When you have 80 million ballots sent in and swamping the system -- You know it can't be done, you know it can’t. And already there have been --

1:29:56 WALLACE

Alright, so wait a minute. Final question is, in eight states, election workers are prohibited, currently by law in eight states, from even beginning to process ballots, even take them out of the envelopes and flatten them, until Election Day. That means that it's likely, because there's going to be a huge increase in mail-in balloting, that we are not going to know on election night who the winner is. And it could be days, it could be weeks.

1:30:25 TRUMP

Could be months.

1:30:28 WALLACE

-- until we know who the new president is. So I first for you sir. Finally, for the, for the vice president. I hope neither of you will interrupt the other. Will you urge our supporters to stay calm during this extended period, not to engage in any civil unrest? Will you pledge tonight that you will not declare victory until the election has been independently certified? President Trump will go first.

1:30:54 TRUMP

I’m urging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully because that's what has to happen. I am urging them to do it. As you know, today there was a big problem. In Philadelphia, they went into watch, they were called poll watchers, a very safe very nice thing. They were thrown out. They weren't allowed to watch. You know why? Because bad things happen in Philadelphia. Bad things. And I am urging, I am urging my people- I hope it's gonna be a fair election. If it's a fair election, I am 100% on board. But if I see 10s of thousands of ballots being manipulated. I can't go along with that.

1:32:31 WALLACE

Does that mean you are gonna tell your people to take to the streets?

1:32:32 TRUMP

I’ll tell you what it means. It means you have a fraudulent election. You're not equipped to, these people aren't equipped to handle it, number one. Number two, they cheat. They cheat. Hey, they found balance in a wastepaper basket days ago and they all had the name, military fellas. They were military, they all had the name, Trump on them. You think that’s good?

1:31:51 WALLACE

Vice President Biden, final question for you. Will you urge your supporters to stay calm while the vote is counted? And will you pledge not to declare victory until the election is independently certified?

1:32:05 BIDEN

Yes. Here's the deal, they count the ballots, as you pointed out some of these ballots in some states can't even be open until Election Day. And if there's thousands of ballots, it’s gonna take time to do it. And by the way, our military. They've been voting, by ballots since the end of the Civil War in effect. And that's what's happened gonna happen. Why was it not, why is it for them to somehow not fraudulent? It's the same process. It's honest. No one has established at all, that there is fraud related to mail-in ballots. That somehow it's a fraudulent --

1:32:41 TRUMP

It's already been established. Look at --

1:32:45 WALLACE

You had an opportunity to respond. Go ahead.

1:32:48 BIDEN

He has no idea what he's talking about. Here's the deal, the fact is, I will accept it and he will too. Because you know why? Because once the winner is declared, after all the, all the ballots are counted, all the votes are counted, that'll be the end of it. That'll be the end of it. And if it's me, in fact, fine. And if it's not me, I'll support the outcome. And I'll be a president, not just for the Democrats. I'll be president for Democrats and Republicans. And this guy --

1:33:16 TRUMP

I want us to --

1:33:21 WALLACE

Gentlemen? Will you say that’s the end of it? This is the end of this debate. We're going leave it there. To be continued in more debates as we move on. President Trump, Vice President Biden, it's been an interesting hour and a half. I want to thank you both for participating in the first of three debates that you have agreed to engage in. We want to thank Case Western Reserve University, and the Cleveland Clinic for hosting this event. The next debate, sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates, will be one week from tomorrow. October 7 at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. The two vice presidential nominees Vice President Mike Pence and Senator Kamala Harris will debate at 9pm Eastern that we hope you watch. Until then, thank you and good night.

This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: Presidential debate: Read the full transcript of the first debate